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[76012,3361] MARS6.TXT 15-May-89 3146 Accesses: 21 Keywords: CONRESSMAN ROE HOAGLAND MARS FACE NASA COVERUP The following is a template of a letter to the Chairman of the House Committee on Space and Technology. It is very important that this issue receive the proper amount of "political" attention, as NASA seems to have their own agenda on how to look for signs of extrasolar intelligence AND has refused to consider any "outside" evidence, irregardless of how compelling. Press <CR> for next or type CHOICES ! [76012,3361] HOAG.CO 11-May-89 36058 Accesses: 39 Keywords: HOAGLAND MARS MISSIOM PROJECT CO ET FACE This file is transcript of Sunday, May 7, 1989 on-line CompuServe Conference sponsored by the National Issues and People Forum with author Richard Hoagland. His most recent book, "The Monuments of Mars," explores a surface anomaly photographed by NASA's Mars Viking Mission resembling a human face. Press <CR> for next or type CHOICES !CHO The Issues Forum Library Disposition 1 READ this file 2 DOWNLOAD this file 3 RETURN to library menu Enter choice or <CR> for next !1 [The following is a transcript of Sunday, May 7, 1989 on-line CompuServe Conference sponsored by the National Issues and People Forum with author Rich ard Hoagland. His most recent book, "The Monuments of Mars," explores a surface anomaly photographed by NASA's Mars Viking Mission resembling a human face.] User ID Nod Name ------------- --- ------------------- 72470,250 NRL daniel burton 71340,276 SOR Mark.Y 76012,3361 MRT Ted 76340,3357 BTM Michelle Smith 76703,266 DUK Georgia 71270,1311 LAK MARTIN ARANT 76416,733 QFM Ed Tarantelli 76702,330 CWV Dick 72537,2312 PRI Paul Carr 74656,2333 LCA Paul J. Burke/CA 71435,1203 NWH Howard 72135,424 PNX Jim S. 73500,625 CGK John 72406,1736 HLY Darrell Green 70511,17 CRZ Mike 74270,3360 BOI Don Ecker 71450,3504 ANN Bert 72560,341 RIV Mike Sugarman/Celes 72427,1316 ENC Ron Page 76703,674 DUK Chuck Lynd 76247,447 DTB steve rivera 72470,242 HVN EROL TORUN 75015,364 SFM Stan Tenen 72210,1213 DEM mcorbin 76703,303 WVA Dick DeLoach % Conference has begun (Georgia) Welcome to all! Tonight we welcome Richard Hoagland. During the question-and-answer period, when it is your turn to speak, please keep line length to around 60 columns. Keep questions short so that all participants h ave an opportunity to ask their questions. When you have finished formulating yo ur question, end with GA so that our guest will know when to begin. First, Ted Markley, my assistant in charge of Paranormal issues will introduce the guest , then ask some questions to start things moving. After that we will take questions as long as possible. GA Ted. (Ted) Tonight we are fortunate to have as our special guest Richard Hoagland , author of "The Monuments of Mars" and founder of the Mars Project and the new ly formed Mars Mission. Dick's long list of impressive credentials can found in the Convention Center lobby as well as in the Issues Forum. Before we open the fl oor to questions I will conduct a brief interview with Dick which will cover some of the more frequently asked question. Welcome, Dick! GA (Dick) Thanks, Ted. It's nice to be here. Ah, where ever "here" is. (Ted) While many here tonight have read your book, others only know of the "Face" on the Martian surface through tabloids such as the "National Enquirer ." I know that this Martian surface feature is getting the serious attention of noted members of the scientific community. Can you comment on the caliber of the team on the Mars Project. GA (Dick) Well, Ted, the list is constantly growing. We have some whom have been involved almost from the beginning -like Dr. Mark Carlotto, of the Analytic Science Corporation, in Reading Mass. But, then we have "new blood" that com es to us out of the blue, like Erol Torun of Defense Mapping who read my book la st okfall, was _determined_ to prove me wrong -- and wound up discovering some extraordinary stuff. So it just keeps growing.GA { (Ted) Dick, you recently started the Mars Mission as spin off of the Mars Project. Can you explain the charter and purpose of the Mars Mission? GA (Dick) When it became clear last Fall that we were really on to something, w hen the numbers started really coming together I realized that the biggest hurdle to getting verification was going to be the _political_ process. So, if the Project was the originator of the research, the Mars Mission is the "home" of what I like to think of as the necessary "democratization" of the data to get the _political_ system up to speed for verification. In other words, we need to put the pressure on NASA to TAKE NEW PICTURES. And that means Congress and people who want to know if this is real.ga (Ted) Is there a way that interested people (even though they may not be high ly technical) can keep abreast of new development in both the Mars Project and t he Mars Mission? ----- Dick got knocked off. Please stand by. For those of you w ho just joined us, Dick Hoagland was knocked off and should be back on shortly. ga (Dick H.) Sorry, guys I seem to have slipped into a warp. This ship takes a little getting used to. One can't be "all thumbs".ga (Ted) I'll repeat my last question. Is there a way that interested people (e ven though they may not be highly technical) can keep abreast of new development in both the Mars Project and the Mars Mission? GA (Dick H.) Let's try again. Yes, there is. One can write to us at the Mars Mission: P.O. Box 981, Wytheville, VA 24382. Or, one can subscribe to the Ma rs Mission Newsletter (at the same P.O. Box). Or, one can actually log-on to ou r new (very new -- grin) Mars Mission Board, which we hope to get up and runnin g in a week or two. There are so many new developments -- on both the research front and the political front that we've decided to try the "electronic way" and see if it works. I should add that Marty Arant is the guy who really impelled us to try this, so if it DOESN'T work blame him!.ga (Ted) One last ? before I open the floor. What can the average person do to help get us back to Mars and get more data on the "Face"? GA (Dick H.) (Sorry for the delay -- we have cats) The main thing is that we nee d new images of Cydonia, ASAP, And NASA has steadfastly refused to take them!! ! That simply doesn't make sense. What makes this science, as opposed to that "other stuff" is that THIS IS TESTABLE. It's that simple. The fact that NASA doesn't WANT to subject this data to the only fair appraisal at this point, i s very suspicious. Which is why we were extremely gratified that we've found su ch an excellent reception on Capitol Hill including an invitation to meet with t he Chairman (himself!) of the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology a couple of weeks ago. His attention to this problem is probably going to do m ore in the long run to get us the answers we need (and deserve) than any other single development on the political front in the last 13 years. And, to keep that side of the system "honest" public interest (citizen support for the sim ple idea of LOOKING) is ESSENTIAL. This, Congressman Robert A. Roe should get som e mail from anyone who wants to let him know that they support HIS interest in this vital inquiry. His address is: The Honorable Robert A. Roe Chairman, House Committee on Space, Science and Technology U.S. House of Representatives Rayburn Building -- Rm 2243 Washington, D.C. Ted, you asked.ga (Ted) I'll now open the floor to ? GA (Dick H.) Sounds good.ga (Georgia) type /que to get in line. % Moderator recognizes queue #1 Paul J. Burke/CA <10> (Paul J. Burke/CA) Mr. Hoagland, I feel you are mining the depths of scientif ic ignorance, with this phony issue. It is the nadir of anthroprocentric chauvan ism to believe some advanced civilization could detect the existence of man on th is planet and do nothing more than carve out a mountain that MIGHT be seen, by s ome tree dwelling mammal. How could THEY see so far ahead? GA. (Dick H.) This goes to the heart of many issues, Paul I personally believe it is us who are acting slightly anthropocentric. We have an "image," a "model" fo r how "ET" is "supposed" to behave. If the "signal" we get doesn't fit that "image," we -- NASA -- rejects it. So, which is more anthropocentric? To pur sue data where it leads. Or to say, "the data doesn't exist?"ga (Paul J. Burke/CA) Aren't the Mars imagers dead? How can NASA take any more photos? (Dick H.) I don't see any connection. The material "ruins" are still there. When Mars Observer gets there in 1993, all we want is the Cydonia Region REIMAGED. The objects (there is FAR more than the "face") will still certain ly be there.ga (Ted) Next (Paul J. Burke/CA) I would agree to a 'side trip' on the next Mars mission, (Dick H.) It's not even that complicated. Mars Observer will be in a POLAR ORBIT. It will inevitably fly over EVERY SQUARE INCH OF MARS every 35 or 36 days. So, all NASA has to agree to is to take the images at the designated ti me. And they won't!ga % Moderator recognizes queue #2 Bert <17> (Ted) GA Bert (Bert) Dick, do you know if the Soviets have an interest in Cydonia and do yo u have any information relating to the AP release (a month or so back) indicati ng the Soviets had observed something very strange on the surface of Mars? GA (Dick H.) I put several items relating to the past research history of this i nto the Library earlier today (Ted, can tell you guys how to get them out!) I can tell you this (as background to some of that material, which relates to past dealings we've had with the Soviets on this issue. Last January, one of our t eam -- Dr. Brian O'Leary a former scientist-astronaut went personally to Moscow w ith the pictures. His mission: to try to get Sagdeev and others to take new image s with the Phobos spacecraft. They all sat there, looking at the Carlotto enhancements and were VERY interested, according to O'leary. That was over a year ago. Late last year, in December, just before the NASA briefing we did I got a letter from a Soviet scientist whom we've been in direct contact with f or about a year. He's a specialist in "problems of extraterrestrial contact". His Ph.D. is in this particular subject, in fact! Anyway, HE said the new data wa s SO interesting, he was going to Sagdeev (then head of the unmanned Phobos Mission) to try to get new images of Cydonia from Phobos 2. That was last December I, of course, immediately shot back a reply telling him HOW the imag es might be taken (inclination of orbit to the equator, etc.) So far -- this is MAY -- nothing. But the Soviet's HAVE announced some pretty peculiar things around their Phobos mission including a Radio Moscow Report that Marty Arant heard first-hand which had Orthodox Russian priests going into the Moscow Pho bos Control Center to "see the Phobos images of Mars and to talk about the creati on. You figure it out.ga. (Ted) As Dick mentioned, there will be several files in LIB 10 of the ISSUES forum tomorrow. Dick was furiously uploading document today and I have not processed them all yet.... (Dick H.) "Furiously" is right.ga (Ted) We will have only one ? each until all have had at least one chance. G A NEXT % Moderator recognizes queue #3 DON <16> (#DON) Ok Thanks Ted. Richard, I have just a simple question. I am presuming that the majority of your work is concerned with the photos that were taken i n the early 70's, and are mostly concerned with the "face" and what you perceiv e as structures my question is this. How many independent computer photo enhancements have been performed by independent facilities, other than the Carlotto work and if this is so important why is there so much "infighting" among the various people working on this, such as John Brandenbergs Cydonia Features, and Vince Di Pietro and Greg Molenaar. Why is there no co-operatio n? ga (Dick H.) I guess every time in the history of human affairs one comes up against a problem that is really interesting very "human" problem will inevitably raise there head. This is true, whether you work at the NSC, at NA SA, for the Civil Rights movement, or anything. The fact of the matter is we all , all of us who have been involved with this firmly are committed to one goal n ow: new images ASAP. That's got to be priority number uno. The rest of it -- whi ch says a lot about different emphasis on different aspects of the research is f ar less important than that point.ga (DON) Ok, so how many independent research efforts have there been that confi rms your theory? Or is there only one? ga (Dick H.) Good question. In "Monuments" I go into great detail on three investigations. Each of these did some imaging. The first, of course, was NASA! Surprised? It as NASA which first "found" this object, and put it on th e public record. It was only after that, that others namely DiPietro and Molenarr, at Goddard, in 1979 did their "thing" -- found the SECOND, corroborating frames taken of Cydonia at a higher sun-angle which has given u s such great data to actually work with. They did enhancements, published and nothing much happened for EIGHT YEARS. Then, in 1983 I got the images, looked at them and realized that I was seeing not only a "face" but other things which didn't belong there. That's when the third IMAGING investigation began -- at SRI. Their Prime system did some excellent work, using digital copies of the NASA Viking tapes. That's when we turned to a FOURTH source, for "independen t data" on the imaging: Mark Carlotto. Carlotto, I must say, has put the most time and effort into extracting every bit of data from these tapes. And he's brought not only new techniques to the imaging. He's also "attacked" the prob lem with new ideas -- such as the "fractal analysis" he's not done and submitted to the journals. And every time we use a new technique we turn up DATA not noi se. That, I believe, is trying to tell us something.ga % Moderator recognizes queue #4 Stan Tenen <8> (Stan Tenen) hi, Richard, this is Stan of meru. (I don't think I can squeeze in punctuation ). I have several questions; first, i think that you are focusin g on the wrong data; brilliant as Carlotto's analysis is, the best data , in my opinion is Toruns. the alignments that he shows among the various strange objects at Cydonia is very hard to explain for example: l the edges of the d& m pyramid are very fuzzy in the enhanced photos. I am not convinced by the phot os what is extraordinary is that the alignments of the d&m with the bulls eye an d the face and the cliff and the tholus are exactly redefine the fuzzy edges of the d & m so it is not necessary to see it clearly - the alignments sharply define the edges. Also, it is not hard to find very interesting alignments f or example; the cliff subtends the same angle from both the tip of the d & m and from the city center bulls eye. That means that the edges of the cliff, which are very well defined and the tip of the d & m and the bulls eye must lie on the same circle. By the way, what features has John Brandenberg found - I have n ot heard of his data before. Also, you mentioned base 3 and 3609 on the phone earlier my calculations show 360 base 10 to equal 111100 base 3. 364 base 1 retry; 364 base 10 equals 111111 base 3, much more elegant. What say you. ga (Dick H.) I don't know quite where to begin, Stan. Let me say, first, that yo u have confused some of the work just a bit. When I got into this, back in 198 3, it was precisely because I thought I saw the potential for some remarkable relationships between some intriguing objects at Cydonia. I put these ideas into a VERY primitive numerical "model" in "Monuments" I called it the "relationship model" and felt that if we were going to ever know at EXISTING image resolution what we were dealing with it would only be through discovery of some very precise, provocative, and repeating numerical RELATIONSHIPS between these objects. Little did I know that that day would arrive much sooner than I thought when I finished the book Erol, in the Fall of last year, in measuring . ONE of the most fascinating "structures" near the "face": the so-called "D&M Pyramid" discovered an extraordinary set of VERY SPECIFIC relationships INTER NAL to this object. I, in turn, in remeasuring all the previous alignments, had noted in the book between the objects that you cited -- the Face, the "City", the "Cliff" and the "Tholus" (all objects which are much easier to talk about if you have images and maps before you!) Anyway, in remeasuring those previousl y noted alignments, I discovered to my immense surprise -- and satisfaction! -- that Torun's precise numerical angles (and derived numerical constants which we shall define in a moment) SHOWED UP -- not once . . . or twice . . . but perh aps HALF A DOZEN TIMES (I've lost exact count, at this point). The point is this : you're right. To me, the REALLY exciting stuff is NOT that something "looks like a face" or "looks like a Pyramid". It's that Erol and I have discovered between us something like two or three dozen REPEATING numerical relationship s and these have given us the SAME set of repeating mathematical constants -- l ike "e" and "pi" -- again . . . and again . . . and again. And these constants have now yielded a prediction as to the very siting latitude of these objects on the planets's surface --. Anyway, you're right. THAT's the "ball to keep one's eye upon! And, tonight, we're fortunate that Erol is here, to tell us specifically what he's discovered recently.ga (Georgia) Ted is next. (Ted) Dick, I think we passed too quickly over a couple of innuendoes that Do n raised relative to "Infighting" and lack of co-operation among members of the Mars Project. Is it true that this has been occurring? GA (Dick H.) I'd be less than candid if I didn't say, "yes." But so what? Polit ics are everywhere. The point is not who agrees with you, or who decides that "th is" area is more important than "that." The point in science is "Can you test yo ur hypothesis?" Personality conflicts, hidden agendas, fear of being too bold ( or too timid) have no real place in such a process. That's why those of us who think we need a bold, politically aggressive strategy to get back to Mars for the crucial data that we need now have frmed the Mars Mission. That doesn't (Ted) GA Dick (Ted) Dick has been knocked off again. (Dick H.) Gone into the ether, again. But, I'm back! % Moderator recognizes queue #5 steve rivera <22> (Ted) TO get into QUE type "/que" GA Dick (Dick H.) Now, what was I saying? Oh, yes . . . the point is not the politics of "personality," but the objective of getting real information on a problem of first-rate importance. If the criteria for an important problem be that there are no "politics," then that would eliminate ALL of human activity. Next.ga (Ted) GA Steve (steve rivera) SORRY I MISSED THE FIRST FIFTEEN MINUTES OF THE CONFERENCE BESIDES THE "ISSUES" FORUM, WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFORMATION (AND PERHAPS PHOTOS) SUCH AS BBS NUMBERS, ADDRESSES, ETC DTB GA (Ted) Steve, there will be a transcript of this CO in the ISSUES Lib 10 soon. Dick answered that question earlier. If you don't find what you need there se nd me EMAIL. NEXT % Moderator recognizes queue #6 Jim S. <12> (Dick H.) I should add our Mars BBS number, however, which I forgot earlier (703)228-7822.ga (Jim S.) I should preface by saying the face looks enough like a face to me t o merit serious inquiry, however. As you know, this issue lives or dies on scientific diligence. In your white paper, you refer to the Viking images as the "first hard evidence" of the existence of ETI. Was this just a semantical sli p (did you mean "possible indication") or do you really consider your findings "hard evidence"? If so, isn't it possible that NASA's motivation (or lack thereof) stems from simple mistrust of your methodology and/or scientific objectivity? GA (Dick H.) Excellent question. I used the term "hard" because for all of NASA' s 30 years of SETI. They've only had THEORY. The evidence in the images -- no matter how you consider the pros or cons of looking at it -- is hard evidence . It must be addressed. It has not been except by this group OUTSIDE of NASA. I have entered in LIB 10 what I think as some of the reasons for this. You may agree or disagree. But the point is this. In science, when a theory ("Hypothesis" is a better term, here) is "on the table," the scientific proce ss DEMANDS that it be tested. It hasn't been. The only one's who can TEST it a t this point on Mars (which is the only test that will really convince everyone ) are the NASA folks who control the spacecraft, the launch facilities, the imaging systems the tracking network, etc.etc.etc. And that"s put a severe "dent" in the process.ga (Ted) Next % Moderator recognizes queue #7 Bert <17> (Ted) Bert Passes, Next % Moderator recognizes queue #8 mcorbin <9> (mcorbin) Dick, I hope that this is not redundant as I was unable to get on a t 6:30 due to network problems, but despite official NASA denial of interest in this aspect of the Martian surface are there any indications of interest on their part unofficially? I seem to get the indication that they do indeed ha ve an interest in this phenomenon, but they are not public about it.ga (Dick H.) If they don't have a "official"interest now, they might have shortl y. Tomorrow morning, according to a phone conversation we had with the chief aid to Congressman Roe last Friday the Congressman is sending an _official_letter to NASA, asking precisely that question "WHAT (NASA) HAVE YOU DONE ABOUT THIS DATA?" Now it's become a bit uncomfortable in the last 48 hours or so to lie to Congress. I think we're going to find out some interesting things in the next few days.ga (Ted) Ok Next % Moderator recognizes queue #9 DON <16> (DON) Richard, I assume you are familiar with William "Bill" Moore and the wo rk that he, Stan Friedman and Jamie Shandera have done with the MJ-12 material. As you may or may not know, ParaNet was the first informational system to "break " this story, at ParaNet and here on CIS. I understand that Moore was attemptin g to get in contact with you. Would you care to elaborate on this, and does it have anything to do with your attempt to get Congress involved with the Mars material and his same attempt in reference with the MJ-12 material? ga (Dick H.) First, the investigation into the Viking images has no DIRECT connection with any UFO material, investigations, etc. I want to say that, so that what I say next is very clear. Both, however, have at their root, a POLITICAL problem. If NASA HAS done work on these images (in the theory that we're not the only "smart" guys in town) then the ONLY way to find that out i s through the political process -- if it works. The UFO guys have had the same problem. So, on the surface there is a similarity. The DIFFERENCE is this: w e can test the Mars data in the very near future BY SIMPLY GETTING NEW IMAGES O F MARS. There is no easy way to TEST the UFO hypothesis; the "data" doesn't "stand still". Now, I'm impressed that the CHAIRMAN of the most powerful committee, in terms of science, in the Congress invited us in HIMSELF -- no "staff" etc. We had what Henry Kissinger would have called a "frank and open discussion" of many issues. His reaction was (and I'm paraphrasing here, of course): "Look, NASA's taken a _political_ position why are you here . . . fo r a _political_ solution." But, that solution is going to need the attention of Americans who want to know what's there, if these political expressions of interest are going to be followed through.ga (Georgia) We are not quite finished but the format is about to change there a re still 3 questions and after I end the formal session, each of you 3 send a ? and Ted will moderate there is a more manageable number here now. I want to thank Richard!!! APPLAUSE!! % The conference has ended Thank you for attending (Jim S.) ? (Ted) Let start the new que, who are waiting in the wings? ga (DON) !! (MARTIN ARANT) ? (mcorbin) ! (Stan Tenen) ? (Ted) GA Jim (Jim S.) Thanks Ted, and yes, applause Dick. Is it just coincidence that your Mars Mission is headquartered in a well-known UFO flap area? More to the poin t, is Danny Gordon in any way connected with your group? GA (Dick H.) Well, everyone I know, at one time or another has asked me that in the last year! I can assure you that UFO's are NOT why I'm here. But I have met Danny Gordon on a number of occasions. And he strikes me as a serious reporte r, trying to fathom an unfathomable story.ga (Ted) Don is next ga (DON) Richard, lets get back to Moore. I believe you did not address the question about Moore? Is he connected with you with the Mars material, or wa s this coincidence? ga (Dick H.) Don, I have also met Bill Moore -- at a coupe of conferences in LA, I believe. (So, I don't know where the idea came from that "he's trying to get in touch with me; he already has!") Anyway, I know all about his work, and can assure you that it has no direct or indirect connection with our own. Let me add this, however. If this data we've been exploring on Mars is as robust as it h as now become to some of us, then it raises the obvious question: if someone cou ld find this solar system once (the operative "visitor to Mars" model that I favor). Then why couldn't someone AGAIN. Especially, if the "face" is trying to tell us of some "link" with events beyond this planet. I think we should all keep an open mind on that point.ga (Ted) Martin is next Don you are in line after Stan ga Martin (#MARTIN ARANT) on my interesting conversation with JPL ted, am I on? OK. Dic k, Great conference! I was #11 and was going to make a statement on my interesti ng conversation with the "gentleman" at JPL. Anyway, is Erol Torom on line? I a m interested in what else he has discovered. ga (Dick H.) Erol, do you want to get a word in here?ga (Ted) Ga Erol (Bert) ? (Ted) Maybe Erol will speak later (Dick H.) Let me answer Marty's question in another way. Marty called JPL som e weeks ago and got some very interesting responses to this investigation. Particularly the idea that if we "keep this up, we're going to destroy the planetary program, if not at least Mars Observer!" I kid you not... Anyway, l ast week, a reporter for the Wall St. Journal called up JPL and, asked to speak t o the Project Scientist for Mars Observer. I think his name is Alby, or something. Anyway, Alby told the Wall St. Journal guy that "he didn't have an y objection to taking a few pictures of Cydonia if asked. Point: this represen ts a 180 degree reversal of field for NASA. And, I said in a note to the Journa l reporter: "Perhaps it's because there have been some calls from the guys on t he Hill in the last few days"ga (Ted) Ok Mike wanna continue? ga (mcorbin) Yield to Bert. Th-.,.HX6l. Good night. { (Ted) Stan is next GA STAN (Stan Tenen) im still curious about 360 degrees and base 3 as far as I can se e 360 base10 = 111100 base3 is this correct?ga (Ted) This seems to be a rather involve question to answer in this format. St an, earlier Dick gave an address where he can be reached. Could this question be dealt with in that way? ga (Stan Tenen) yes (EROL TORUN) ? (Dick H.) perhaps I can answer Stan, without boring everyone else I come back to "how will we know it's real." That is THE question everyone would agree (I hope!) I also feel that something said earlier this evening is right on track : we tend to get mesmerized by the images -- what "looks" familiar -- a "Face," etc. And we lose sight of the science -- the epistemology -- that must under pin any "decision" on "reality." I believe, in answer to another question, that w e may have "crossed the Rubicon" on this one. The math is the key. How many "bi g" questions in science are decided by things we CANNOT see -- quarks black-hole models .. AIDS viruses? If we have to recognize something in these images, before we accept the "reality" of this, then we're rejecting at least two hundred years of science! So, we come back to the numbers. Erol discovered a specific set of numbers in one object, after trying to DISPROVE my contention that this object was important. I extended those specific numbers to the whol e Complex and found THE SAME quantities, expressed repeatedly to ONE PART IN A THOUSAND!!! The probability that these serial discoveries are chance is calculable by the same mathematics used to calculate the odds of TWO engines failing on a 737 in England and the results say we are NOT dealing with chanc e: it HAS to be Design to we believe the numbers . . .? Read the papers on the Mars BBS -- (703) 228-7822 -- in a week or so. ga (Ted) Erol Torun is up. Go Ahead Erol GA (EROL TORUN) Am I getting through to you? (Ted) Yes. Just a reminder to those new to our CO. We operate under formal rules. If you want to ask a question or make a comment type a "?" or a "!" a nd I will take down your name and put you in queue. I'll let you know when it is your turn. GA Erol ( GA means Go Ahead and talk) GA (EROL TORUN) Great conference, dick. I agree with Dick's opinion that the fin al test of the reality of what we are looking at will be based on the presence o f regular geometry. To briefly summarize my work, I have found the three things that one would look for in ANY remotely sensed imagery that might contain rui ns these are : 1 - Inconsistency with the local geology .. 2 - The presence of regular geometry that is suggestive of intelligent intervention 3 - Meaningful context Dick was the first to emphasize the importance of context i.e. a face or pyramid in isolation would make little sense GA (steve rivera) ? (Dick H.) Sorry, I missed a bit when something knocked me off line.ga (Stan Tenen) bye and be well all (Ted) Don is up GA (DON) Thanks Ted. Richard, Mars is all well and good, and it is possible that something has in fact occurred there. Until such time as more photos are tak en, or a manned mission happens, we will not know. My question is this. Since th e first manned flights in the 60's, there have been many reports by our astrona uts of sightings of UFOs while in orbit, or while on the moon. Also, many unexplained sightings of something on the moon have filtered back. In the mid 70's George Leonard wrote an excellent book titled "Somebody Else is on the Moon". Have you read this. Or are you familiar with this as well as other wo rks about unusual occurrences that have been reported on the Moon? What is your opinion that even know, something could be occurring? ga (Dick H.) First thing's first. My point (and Erol's) is simply this: we now have enough repeatable, numerical data, to be able to make a very high probability statement regarding the "reality" or "non-reality" of the Cydonia Complex -- if we use the SAME RULES we routinely apply to other areas of science. To most people, I realize, they'll have to "see" something they recognize; but that's not "science," that's emotional response. So, let's ke ep in mind the work that we have covered (Ted) Dick, are you there? ga (DON) Ted, he got bumped. (Ted) Dick got dumped. Welcome back Dick. (Dick H.) Sorry, Don. Now, to the last part of your question [Don left the conference at this point] (Ted) Bert is next GA BERT (Dick H.) Oh (Bert) Go ahead and finish your thought Dick.ga (Ted) Ga Dick (Dick H.) I was going to answer Don's question...But. since he's left, let's move on.ga (Ted) GA BERT (Bert) With regard to the AP article mentioning that the Soviets had seen something like a "15 mile strip" and a "spindle" shaped formation, have you o r any of your group attempted to contact them about what this might have been? ga (Dick H.) Let's take a few interesting things in order. The Soviets have "kno wn" about these objects since AT LEAST 1984 -- when they published a provocative piece in Soviet Life Mag titled" "Pyramids on Mars?" Now, O'Leary took them the enhanced photos in Jan, '88. They had at least a year and a half to plan how to take new images. Now, we have strange stories coming out of Radio Moscow Stories of "strange, spindle-shaped objects and linear features that seem rectilinear". If you put all of this together, you just MIGHT come up with th e idea that they have indeed taken some new images . . . and they are "leaking" news to the West -just like they've done before. Look at the details of the "spindle story": They claim it could be the "shadow of a spacecraft on the surface". If their resolution is THAT good (do the calculation) then they hav e to have seen something interesting at Cydonia! ga (mcorbin) ! (Ted) Mike C is up GA Mike (mcorbin) I have three small questions/statements to make. First, does the US have any frames of the areas that have been taken by the Soviets? Also, I wo uld to offer ParaNet's assistance to you in the efforts of getting information to the public. We are prepared to be of service to you in any way that we possi bly can. And, finally, how near to the complex is this area that the Soviets are interested in? (Dick H.) To your first question, yes the Soviets have brought some Phobos images to Washington NASA HQ but I haven't seen them. They did show O'Leary s ome Phobos (the moon) photos in Tokyo. And he brought those back to Phoenix. We were discussing them on the phone the other afternoon when he called trying t o get an idea of the resolution of the cameras (Something like the physicists who've been trying to duplicate the cold fusion lab set-ups from wire photos! ) Anyway, we don't know (because they haven't released coordinates) where the Soviet "spindle" is located. So, does that answer your question?.ga (EROL TORUN) ? (Ted) GA Erol (mcorbin) Yes, one thing more on this. What is the resolution on the Soviet's camera. Do you know? (Dick H.) For obvious reasons, we've been trying to get very specific info on this. But it's been hard. We've tried published specs. We've tried "inside sources" who are working with the Soviets (like Merton Davies, at RAND) and, we've tried to estimate it, based on the photos they gave O'Leary last week. It all says that IF they wanted to really take new images of Cydonia they could probably AT LEAST equal Viking and, if they put the spacecraft in an orbit designed to get new pics specifically they could do better than Viking by may be a factor of 2 or 3 But we don't know!!!ga (EROL TORUN) ? (Ted) ga EROL (EROL TORUN) Dick, was the AP story more specific as to what the Soviets mean t by a "spindle shaped object" ? I'm thinking of the Viking photograph in Monuments that shows a bizarre "bow-tie" shaped object in close proximity to a straight line with an East-West orientation perhaps the Soviets have reimaged these objects GA (Dick H.) Shades of the Runway. I simply don't know, Erol. However, all our speculating is not going to get real data. What we have done -- and you were in the meeting in Roe's office when he asked -- is to submit a specific "wish li st" to the Chairman of items that will move this Investigation along. And a DIRE CT CALL to the Soviets, asking to see any images they DID secure of Cydonia, is on that list and will be in the LIB 10, t'morrow, right Ted? ga (Ted) Should be there if all goes well. Any other ? GA (Ted) Ok, I want to thank Richard Hoagland for a VERY interesting and informative evening. I hope that Dick will be back to join us soon (and hopefully will be in the National Issues Forum) to join our discussions. Than k you Dick. GA (mcorbin) Thank you Dick. (Dick H.) I'd like to thank everyone who turned out, Ted, it's been a real experience. Never had to type so fast in MY LIFE!ga (Bert) Many thanks Dick, also thanks to Erol. (Mark.Y) Thank you for typing with us! Much appreciated! (Mike) Ditto (EROL TORUN) Thanks and good night to all (mcorbin) Thanks Erol. (Ted) Yes, thanks to EROL also. Let you fingers do the walking thru the data bases! Nite all! ga (mcorbin) Night Ted. Night Bert. (Mark.Y) Night, all! (EROL TORUN) ditto (Bert) Night all. (Mike) "Nite (Dick H.) Why does this sound (look?) like the Waltons? G'night one and all.g a Press <CR> !